Assembling library teams can be challenging. It can also be a lot of fun, especially if you listen to Kevin King, Head of Branch and Circulation Services at the Kalamazoo(MI)Public Library. Kevin has a unique way to think about bringing together the right heroes for teams and capitalizing on their superpowers.
He shares with us the important archetypes of teams and how to integrate those for great results in superhero style. Need a Hulk on your team? How about a Batman? Find out if you do on this super episode.
Transcript
This podcast is brought to you by the School of Library and Information Management from Emporia State University, where library leaders are created, with program sites in Las Vegas, Nevada; Sioux Falls, South Dakota; Denver, Colorado; Salt Lake City, Utah; Portland, Oregon; Boise, Idaho; and Emporia and Overland Park, Kansas; and by the Park City Library—making film and podcasting possible with green screen, and sound recording resources.
Adriane:
Assembling library teams can be challenging. It can also be a lot of fun, especially if you listen to Kevin King, Head of Branch and Circulation Services at Kalamazoo Public Library. Kevin has a unique way to think about bringing together the right heroes for teams, and capitalizing on their superpowers.
He shares with us the important archetypes of teams and how to integrate those for great results in superhero style. Need a Hulk on your team? How about a Batman? Find out if you do on this super episode. Enjoy the show!
Welcome to the show, Kevin.
Kevin King:
Thank you Adriane. I’m super excited to talk about this topic.
Adriane:
Question #1: Yeah, it’s great. So, leadership in libraries means building dynamic and effective teams. And, you have a unique outlook for a fun way to think about assembling the right heroes for teams—capitalizing on their superpowers, right?
Kevin King:
Exactly. We all have superpowers, we all do.
Adriane:
Question #2: We all do. And, I know you’ve been interested in comic books since you were young. Can you tell us a little about your comic link, and your focus on superhero groups, in particular? 01:30
Kevin King:
Well, I’m super attracted to comic team books. Books that bring superheroes from different various parts of the world together to fight for a common good. I think I’ve always been attracted to that type of story, because the idea of people working together to achieve a goal has just been something that—always fascinated me. Especially in the comic world, you have all these different types of people working together. People with different power sets, people with different backgrounds, people with different motivations.
How do they come together to effectively save the day? That’s always been an interest of mine. Especially growing up in a small community that, you know, there weren’t a lot of people that wanted to move in the right direction when it came to—moving our community forward. I always, Why aren’t we moving forward? So, yeah, this has always been a big interest of mine. Comic books are a great way to think about the topic, especially like I said, the hero books.
Adriane:
Yeah, and libraries really are saving lives every day in their own way. And they are superheroes, it’s amazing.
Kevin King:
Yeah, exactly. Like in superhero books, one of the things I like to talk about is when effective teams get together, they act as a Circle of Safety. Have you heard of the concept of Circle of Safety by Simon Sinek?
Adriane:
Um-hum.
Kevin King:
The idea that when you’re working together–when you’re working in a trusted team, good leaders draw a circle around that team. The members of the team—you trust the members on the right and left in the circle. You’re going to move the team forward. You’re going to interact and work with the patrons better. You’re going to interact and work with other members of your staff, other teams in the library.
So, I see superhero teams as the same thing. A lot of times superheroes come from different backgrounds, like I said, different motivations. At first you might think, Oh, is Wolverine going to be able to work with Captain America? Captain America’s the symbol of America, and Wolverine is kind of—his motivation is pretty hack and flash. How are they going to work together?
But those two, in the comic world, learn to trust one another.They had each other’s back. So, I think that gives me the inspiration and motivation that no matter what background people are coming from, no matter what their skillset is, if you can find trust—which to me is the basis of everything in a good team. Right there, right at the bottom foundation part is trust.
If you work on trust the team is going to pull together, because you’re going to be able to say, Hey, I trust you, Adrian. I work with you, we have a long relationship. I don’t—I’m just saying that [laughter], I just met you. But, I’m assuming we would have a long relationship, we work together, we’ve learned to trust one another. So, when you say to me, I don’t know if I like your idea, Kevin. I’m not going to crawl back to my office and crawl under my desk in the fetal position. I’m going to think, You know, Adrian understands my motivation. Adrian knows my background. We’ve built a trusting relationship. She knows where I’m going. She knows that I care about the library, and I want to move it forward.
So, if there is conflict, and conflict is so incredibly important. We are so conflict averse in this profession that it drives me nuts when I hear about it. I know even if we have conflict, that we both want the same result in the end, and we just need to talk further about how we’re not connecting.
Adriane:
We all want spectacular results.
Kevin King:
Yeah, exactly. We all want to move in the right direction. You know, good libraries have really solid, strategic plans, and visions that everyone on the staff understands. Everyone understands it because they’ve all worked on it. And, they know where we’re going. They know where you’re heading, and they know what the plan is.
If everyone knows what the plan is, then you’re always going to move in the right direction. If you trust one another, you know, the team’s going to be stronger, and that Circle of Safety’s going to be unbreakable. I just find that super important.
I see that in superhero teams. I see that, you know—you symbolically see that. Think of it as a superhero team movie where there wasn’t a scene where all the superheroes circled up. I can think of the big one in the first Avengers movie. They were all in a circle. They all had each other’s backs. They all looked to their right and to their left, because it was their Circle of Safety, and they recognized the strengths in the circle, and they were supporting one another. I find that just, you know, it sounds really cheesy, but I find it really heart-warming that that can still happen in the world. And, it’s not hard to do. These are not hard things to do.
Adriane:
It still can happen. It’s a great, powerful source of inspiration for those who do it well.
Kevin King:
Exactly.
Adriane:
Question #3: So what I want to get to is the excitement of these comic books. So, some of us might not be comic book readers, but we can relate to these types, right? …in the comic books. So, most comic books have spectacular origin stories. How do we get together these amazing teams? Can you tell us about how superhero teams gel and why it’s important? 06:40
Kevin King:
Yeah, definitely. I know that in a lot of the superhero books the teams come together because there’s some unifying cause that each person on the team somehow is tied to. I know that a lot of comic book team books, like the Avengers in the 60’s, and the Fantastic Four. Well, the Fantastic Four are a little different. They were a family—still have different problems, and still fitting into some of the archetypes I’ve talked about before in the column I’d written about this topic. But, the Avengers—they were different people, coming from different places, coming together when there was a common evil to combat.
I think they gelled because they had a common purpose. You know, Let’s defeat Loki. A lot of times teams come together right away because there is one common purpose. You think about a supervisor, director, department head—say, I have a project I want you to lead it. Put a team together. Here’s your common purpose.
A lot of time those task forces, whatever you want to call them. They come together pretty quickly. Good leaders create those teams with the people that have the skill sets that are needed to be successful. Or, the knowledge or background—you don’t want to put a bunch of futuristic mindsets on a team because you’re going to have a lot of great ideas, but nothing’s going to get done. So, you want to make sure you’re putting teams together with people that fulfill certain niches to make sure the goal is successful.
That happens a lot where there’s a goal. Teams are thrown together. The trick is if that team’s going to stay together how do they stay together to have continued success? I always say that what I want to make sure I do is look at the people on the team, at least in the library teams that I put together—library teams that I work with, here at Kalamazoo Public Library, and see where our weaknesses are. Like superheroes, everyone has a weakness. What’s the weakness here?
Superman is—his weakness is kryptonite. I’m sure it’s a pretty common weakness, most people know that. So, what does Superman do to help him stay safe from that weakness? Well, he puts people around him he can trust like Batman to make sure to get that kryptonite out of the way. You know, to remove that from the equation so Superman can go on being the most powerful mortal there is to save the day.
So, what you want to do on your teams is make sure you’re putting the people on there that can cover one another’s weaknesses, and fulfill areas where you might not be that good. When I talk to people about this I say, You want to make sure that you got a good assessment of your team’s abilities, their skill sets, their strengths.
So, like in superheroes, you don’t have a superhero team that’s filled with all people who are speedsters like the Flash—people who can run really fast. That’s kind of a boring team, no one’s going to read that book [laughter]. You want diversity. So, you want to make sure you have different people to make sure that you can approach different types of problems, or different types of goals.
One of the other things too, that I find that I see in superhero team books—that I feel really, really, relates to the library world, and this might be a controversial thing, or a tough thing I’m about to say. But in the comic book world, you know the books I read, when there’s a person on the superhero team who’s not pulling their weight, or not doing a good job, they’re usually expelled from the team. Or, they’re sent down to a reserve status.
In the library world, we’re too nice. We tend not to say, Hey, you’re not helping the team achieve their goals. Maybe this team is not for you. I find that in most libraries that I work with on this issue, that’s a really hard thing to do. But, I think it’s a really easy thing to solve when you’re making sure that your system gives people the opportunity to improve.
For example, the X-Men. They have a training room called the Danger Room. That’s a room where it creates scenarios for them to work together as a team to combat whatever situation that’s put before them. So, they set up a system to help train individuals to be part of a team. My job as a leader, and your job as a leader, and our job as library leaders is to make sure we put people in positions to succeed. And if we want them to be part of the team, we’ve got to make sure they have those opportunities for professional development. And, they get the evaluations they need to know how to succeed. Okay? Those are really important parts of being in a good team—and knowing what your weaknesses are, knowing what you need to work on.
So, a team like the Avengers has Captain America who is the ultimate coach, the ultimate manager, the guy who stands in front of the room and says, You know what, there’s a brick wall, go run through it. And everyone does, because he’s so inspiring, and people want to do well for him. I think it’s because he puts people in positions to succeed. He supports them. He helps train them.
If you read the Avengers comic book, every other issue it feels like he’s training with the team, helping them get better. And, those are things that I think about when I’m working with my own teams. I know it sounds kind of cheesy, but they really do relate. If you want a super team you have to think like a superhero, I guess.
Adriane:
Question #4: And, you want to provide the right training and support, all the time, for those team members capitalizing on their strengths. So if you’re building a team, you want to be careful who’s on there. If someone’s not holding their own, they can either go to the superhero minors, and pull back up, or they need to be gotten rid of, right? Which is hard, and I understand that. 13:16
Kevin King:
Yeah, libraries do a disservice by holding on to people who are not pulling their weight, or moving the mission forward, or moving the game plan forward on the teams. In fact, I often say it’s wasting the taxpayer’s dollars. I mean, you’re not really helping the team move forward, and that’s not a good use of resources.
Adriane:
Question #5: Right. And, you’re doing folks a favor by putting them in positions to succeed, which is really important. You talked about Superman being, you know, averse to kryptonite, so there’s Batman right there giving the back up. So, we’re looking for awesome Superman/Batman teams, all of their attributes benefit one another. And, you talk about in an article that you recently wrote, Successful leaders surround themselves with just the right people. So, talk a little bit about that. You quote Gerard Adams who describes four archetypes that make teams better. What are those archetypes, and how can applying them in superhero style help us? 14:16
Kevin King:
Well, the four types—the first one’s relentless workers. These are individuals like—I compare Thor to being a relentless worker. He is someone who has this enormous drive to do well, and he is someone who wants to hold up the lesser person, and make sure they’re being avenged. He’s an Avenger. He wants to make sure they’re avenged for any wrongs that may fall upon them.
So, a relentless worker on a team is someone who is truly committed to the mission, truly committed to moving the game plan forward. And, really inspires people to keep moving forward. There are so many times in the comic books, and even the movies, where the Thor character is kind of like that—that shining example of someone who’s just like, I’m so passionate about what we’re doing, and I want to move us forward.
I think those people are important in library teams, the ones that are thinking about, you know, just being really—they dive right into the issues. And, they’re always thinking about how to improve the process. And, I really think relentless workers are super important.
The second one is the positive attitude. Those are individuals that Gerard Adams says are people—they’re better at what they’re doing if they’re happy. So, people with positive attitudes promote this idea of happiness. I think it’s something we’ve heard a lot about, specifically in our profession, but in a lot of professions that—especially with a lot of the new workers coming into the profession that you know, happiness is an extremely important part of the workday—being happy about what you do, making sure that you feel what you’re doing has meaning. What can be more meaningful than working in a public library, providing people with information, and the resources, and the things they need to be a successful person in the world? I think that’s very meaningful.
So, I think making sure you have people on the team that are the cheerleaders, the ones who are saying, Hey, you know, these are the results of what we’re going to do. If we achieve our goals we’re going to have this, and isn’t this great, isn’t this fitting into our game plan? And, I think that’s a really vital part of it.
I know that’s not something I’m really good at. So, when I’m in a team I don’t fit that role. I don’t think about that. And, I hope when I put teams together I have those positive attitudes on the team.
Inquisitive people. That’s another archetype that Adams talks about in his article. Inquisitive people—those are people who are—they’re asking all the questions. They’re thinking, Are we covering this? They’re the people that I—I’m a futuristic thinker. I’m actually the next archetype [laughter]. But, I love those inquisitive people. Those people that are around us are sometimes—more often keeping us grounded in the mission, in making sure that we’re moving in the right direction, that we have the things we need to go from step to step.
And like a good person on a team, I know what my weakness is. So, I’ve got to make sure I surround myself with that type of person as well. I certainly do that at work here. [laughter] I have somebody who’s making sure I’m staying on top of each step in the process, and that’s really helpful.
Adriane:
Question #6: And is there a superhero? 18:25
Kevin King:
Yeah, she’s a total superhero. The next…
Adriane:
Question #7: …but is there a superhero that fits the inquisitive type? 18:34
Kevin King:
Oh, I’m sorry. Yeah, in the Avengers I feel like in that one, I compare that one to Giant Man, Ant-Man, but not the one we see in the current movies [laughter], the one before the current one. I’m going to get so caught here in a second, it’s going to get really weird, but the one I’m thinking about in the early Avengers is—he was a scientist and he was always making sure that that scientific process was, kind of, being followed.
I think, in a lot of ways, that Batman is part of that. He’s an inquisitive, making sure that the steps are being followed to move in the right direction. He’s a detective. People who tend to be detectives, or people who use logic to solve problems.
The last one is the dreamer. In my comparison to the Avengers, this is definitely the Iron Man, the Tony Stark. But, he is a futurist. He’s someone who is thinking about what’s next—what’s next? What do we do next to achieve our goals? What new ideas—where can we take this idea, and this idea, and put it together and make a bigger, cooler idea?
Those are the dreamers. That is an archetype I, myself, feel close to. It’s one I understand what the pitfalls of being a dreamer are, like I said before. Sometimes you get too far ahead of yourself, and you’re forgetting about the day-to-day operations of the steps you need to get there. But, dreamers are really, really important. Dreamers help move the organization forward, and they help move the Avengers forward.
When Tony Stark, the Iron Man character, and Captain America became a team—later on in the origin story of the Avengers, you really saw the character of Tony Stark blossom. His big ideas being tempered by this leader of Captain America, someone who recognizes that all of these archetypes are important for a successful team. Being the strong person to not only let these archetypes shine, but to know when to say to them, All right, you need to pull back, is what really makes that superhero team incredibly responsive to any situation that might arise—whether that be an alien invasion, or a Mole Man coming up from the inner crater of the earth attacking New York City. They have plans. They practice. Everyone knows one another’s strengths and weaknesses. They know that they have a Circle of Safety. They know how to take care of one another.
Captain America is the good leader that pulls them together, in fact, I don’t think the Avengers are really the Avengers until Captain America comes on board. He was a missing piece there.
Adriane:
Question #8: Wow, this is fantastic. You know what else I love about this? Next time I’m reading comic books at work I can say, Actually, I’m just studying team building. 21:33
Kevin King:
I’m studying leadership, yeah [laughter], exactly. There’s so many examples of teams that have fallen apart because there is someone on the team that doesn’t buy into the whole idea. You see that in comic books all the time, which is really interesting to me, as well.
Adriane:
I’m just going to start passing out comic books at work, this is awesome.
Kevin King:
Yeah, yeah, and they’re just fun to read.
Adriane:
Question #9: They are. So, what can we learn from this to apply to the teams that are already in our libraries? 22:06
Kevin King:
Well, I think I touched upon a lot of that. The Avengers have a charter. The Justice League has a charter. All these superhero teams have charters. And charter is just a fancy word of—these are the rules of the team. This is the way the team works. And, the team works best when they have a great big vision statement, or purpose, goal statement—whatever libraries call it.
When I talk to other librarians about leadership, and team building, and organizational health, my favorite thing to do is ask people to tell me the vision statements of their libraries. And, nobody can do it. I mean, very few people can do it. I think it’s because there weren’t a lot of people in on creating that vision statement. So, when a team creates the vision statement, they’re empowered. They know what it is. They know how to move it forward.
I think the first thing when I pull new teams together is—that I like to talk about, Well, what is our goal? What’s our goal for this team? Sometimes it’s a committee—a standing committee that tackles multiple problems throughout the year. Sometimes it’s a task force that just tackles one thing, and solves that problem and dissolves. So, it’s finding what your goal is and that will not allow for scope creep, which will totally rip apart a team. You know, going off the path.
That’s why you need inquisitive people. And, you need relentless workers to keep you on task. So, finding the right teammates to move the goal forward is the next step, making sure you’re putting the team together. I know a lot of teams—Patrick Lencioni, another one of my favorites, talks about organizational health. He stresses that a lot of organizations fall into this trap of what he calls the Noah’s Ark Committee Building. You feel like you have to have somebody from every group in the library, or every department in the business.
I don’t like to do that. I like to find the people I think that will help move the goal forward. A lot of people say, Well, I need to have—I need to have the Children’s Librarian on the team because how will the Children’s Librarians have a say in the process? Well, if everyone has built this strategic plan, or the vision statement, the game plan for the library, and everyone’s agreed to move in the right direction, everyone should trust one another if you’re a trusting, healthy organization that you’re moving in that direction. So, everyone should know that, What I want is a healthy library that’s moving in the right direction, so trust me that I know what I’m doing is working towards a position that moves us that way.
So, whether there’s Youth Librarians on it, Adult Services Librarians, Circulation, IT, whatever—you put the people on the team that are going to move you forward, and have the skills that you need to do that. So, I feel like that’s one of the things that a lot of libraries fall into that trap of that Noah’s Ark idea. I would avoid that, definitely avoid that.
So, finding the right people, making sure you have goals, making sure you have rules for the team–I think is the best way to do that. And, then making sure that you’re meeting regularly. You’re making sure that your team—I think meeting and building trust is super important, even in small task forces. I know a lot of times when I have a small task force we spend a little bit of time just making sure that not only we build the mission, but we all hear about where we’re coming from. Why we felt passionate about this issue, a little bit about each other. I think that’s the only way to build trust is having personal relationships, and doing one-on-one meetings, which is a whole other podcast in the future [laughter], which I think is vital in leadership—is the one-on-one meeting.
So, I want to make sure those are parts of my team building, and parts of making sure we have a good team. And then finally, I think, evaluating and continuing professional development. If you want to make sure the team is moving in the right direction you want to make sure they’re getting what they need to succeed, whether that’s professional development, or coaching, or—and your evaluations. Evaluation is not a dirty word. If I’m evaluating you, you should know everything that’s in there.
If I’m a good leader I’m meeting with you often. And if I have a problem with what you’re doing, I’m already helping you try to figure it out. So, evaluations are just opportunities to say, What can you do to keep continuing to push the mission forward? And since I’m meeting with you throughout the year, you already know the things you need to be working on. So, that’s an important part of the process as well.
Adriane:
Question #10: That’s fantastic, Kevin, thank you so much. And I kind of just want to say, Holy invaluable information, Batman! 27:08
Kevin King:
Oh, [laughter] thank you! Batman’s my favorite, too, you hit the right one.
Adriane:
Question #11: Right, like I kind of seriously want to be that Adam West TV Batman, you know, with that little cape, like Zoinks, and Crack, and Pow. And running through my day with that outfit on, that little mask. Wouldn’t that be fun? 27:18
Kevin King:
That would be awesome. And here’s a—it’s funny. My baby book—tell you why I like Batman, but I looked at my baby book right before I graduated from library school. Two things popped out there in two continuous days my mom had written in the baby book. One way, He—Kevin really likes Batman, the TV show [laughter].
Adriane:
Oh, my gosh.
Kevin King:
The next thing she wrote—I kid you not, was, Oh, he loves books. Maybe one day he’ll be a librarian.
Adriane:
No way, [laugher]. That’s awesome.
Kevin King:
It was so crazy. Yeah, and here I am, a librarian. She knew pretty early on that I was going to like superheroes and was going to be a librarian so…
Adriane:
Question #12: The perfect meshing, right in your very own baby book, that’s the best. So, do you have a favorite book, or resource you’d like to share about leadership, and why? 28:19
Kevin King:
Gosh, so many. I mentioned a few. I mentioned the Simon Sinek book, which is Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t. That’s been invaluable to me. The Patrick Lencioni book, The Advantage, is also something that I draw upon a lot.
There is a book called, The Effective Manager, by Mark Horstman. That talks a lot about the one-on-one.The one-on-one meetings, which I started doing two years ago. And, it literally just changed the way I led my teams, which has been invaluable. I tell people one-on-ones are the way to go.
Then finally, the book I read this last year is called, The Culture Code, by Danial Coyle. That one is probably my favorite book in the past year when it comes to leadership. It’s talking about how—how cultures change the way we work, and secrets of really successful cultures. I find that library cultures are crazy different. But, I bet every profession says that [laughter], I feel that they are. I know when we put new hires in here I feel like we onboard with a discussion of culture more and more than we have in the past like, This is what our culture is like. I think good libraries identify their cultures, and are able to put it into words. That helps the onboarding process pretty significantly, if you ask me.
Adriane:
Question #13: It does. I read that book too, and found it really valuable. So, that’s a great recommend, thank you for those. Is there anything else you want to share? 30:06
Kevin King:
No. I think that finding your way to a successful superhero team is easy, easier than you think. It’s not very expensive. I mean, that’s the thing I find really interesting about libraries and this inability to work on being a healthy organization. The steps you take to be in a healthy organization are so inexpensive. They’re easy, in terms of the process. It’s easy. I mean, the plan is easy. The process sometimes can get a little messy. But you know, people want to go to work, and they want to know that they are doing something vital and important. They want to know they’re part of a team that’s moving some sort of positive mission forward.
And, I feel like anyone who wants to work in a library has already said, you know, I want to do something for the good of humanity. I mean, when you work in a public library, you’re kind of making that choice, I’m working with the public. I’m hopefully doing something to change people’s lives, and that’s pretty darn heroic as it is.
Adriane:
That is heroic. I like that a lot.
Kevin King:
It’s super heroic to think that every day I’m going to go to a building that’s funded by taxpayer’s dollars and have the responsibility of making people’s lives better. It’s super heroic. And, you owe it to the community to make sure that you’re the best hero you can be, and you have the best heroic teams as possible. That’s kind of part of our responsibility. It’s not only, you know, protecting the public trust—the buildings, the materials, but it’s making sure that we’re making the community better.
A superhero team that doesn’t save the community is going to be out of business. No one’s going to call their names. Or, no one’s going to put a signal in the air to try to get them to come save them, because they’re not doing their jobs. Our jobs are to be superheroes. Our job is to make sure we have super teams.
Adriane:
Question #14: So, we’re already to build super teams. Kevin, in closing, what does being a librarian mean to you, personally? 32:13
Kevin King:
Oh, wow. You know, that’s a tough one for me. I thought a lot about that. Personally, I—I love being able to come into the library and know that I’m, like I said, working in an institution that wants to make the community better. I feel pretty strongly about that. And I love, at least where I work, I have a lot of opportunities to do some innovative things to—that are not necessarily traditional library things to improve the community.
So, I’ve probably found the place in the profession that allowed me to be innovative and also to contribute to, you know, humanity in the community. And jokingly, but not really— kind of be a superhero myself, but not have to wear the tights, and the cape, and stuff like that, so…[laughter]. I think that’s being heroic, that’s what it means to me, just being someone who contributes.
And I think that’s super important now-a-days to make sure that we are examples of that, especially in today’s climate. We have a pretty divided community, divided world. And, if libraries and librarians, and library workers can be the place where people feel safe, and feel like they can say what they can say respectfully, and have open dialogue, and get warm, and get cool, and you know, those sorts of things, then I think we’re doing our job. When I first started out I didn’t think that was what the profession was about. But now I know that’s what it’s about. It took awhile, but that’s what it means to me, I guess.
Adriane:
Well, you’re definitely heroic doing what you’re doing, and also ensuring this fantastic information with all of us to help us build superhero teams, so thank you for being on the show. It has been a lot of fun.
Kevin King:
Oh, it’s been great. I really appreciate being able to talk about this. I’m pretty passionate about it. And, I think it’s something that if we all work towards it, we’re going to have a—the profession’s going to keep moving on to the future, and changing, and always at its base helping people be better.
You’ve been listening to Library Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Adriane Herrick Juarez. Our producer is Nate Vineyard. More episodes can be found at libraryleadershippodcast.com, where you can now subscribe to have new shows delivered right into your email inbox. You can also find the show on Apple iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We’ll see you next time.